Help With Isolation Box D: [HELP]

[Gilks]

Hey.

I've decided to build an iso box considering that I'm going to be recording soon. I was planning on just making one big enough for the amp I have coming, the HT-60 but then I thought it might be a good idea to build it big enough for a standard 4x12 just in case. So I was wondering how big is a standard 4x12. Marshall, Bogner, Fender, whatever. I'm basically building the iso box for my closet. I'll build it and stick it in there with insulation and a blanket or two over it for recording.

Another question is, what's a good way to monitor this accurately? The amp I'm using for recording is a combo. Ideally I want to have a head and cabinet so I can have the head on the desk, and the cab in the iso box so I can tweak things easily but again it's a combo. Am I really just gonna have to go back and forth with this?

Can you recommend the best wood and insulation for sound-proofing this? I've heard that you need to use a really dense wood and I saw a video with Dave Weiner talking about his isolation box so I'll probably use the wood that he used. But any tips you guys can give about this would be great.

I was also thinking of putting a bottom and wheels on it... good idea or bad idea? This brings up the issue of the bottom of the box too. I heard that not using a bottom is better. I have hardwood floors in my room and closet, but I'm upstairs. I'm assuming being upstairs will cause more noise than if I was on the ground floor. So I'm torn because I hear hardwood floor is great for recording, but having no bottom to the box, and it being upstairs could be a problem.

So yeah, I'm just looking for general advice on building a good isolation box. These questions are specific, but I'm still looking for any advice on building this box, since I wanna get it right.

EDIT: The dimensions of my closet are about 26'' deep (little more) and about 4.5' wide. The height isn't a worry as far cabinet and head. I could probably fit a full stack in there, height-wise.

[FC]

Did you get around to building it? I am contemplating building one, but not to put my combo inside. What I have in mind is a dedicated and completely sealed iso cab with its own driver.

[breakfastime]

An iso box is a great idea, but to build one big enough to house a 4x12" cab, well you better have a lot of space.  

You'd do better buying a single 1x12" cab with a really good speaker (that can handle more power than you are going to hit it with) and soundproofing the interior of a closet or crawlspace.

I suggest not ever using a gooseneck to mic anything for a serious recording.  They tend to move of their own accord.  Buy a good (not a cheapie, but something that will last you forever and not slip) shortie boom mic stand.

The reason for not mic'ing a 4x12" cab?  Well, if you're shooting for isolation, a 4x12" cab is going to be knocking around a lot more air, it will be harder to control.  Also, 4 speakers means four sources of sound, cram that in a small space and you're setting yourself up for phase cancellation issues.  Why blast 4 speakers if you're only mic'ing one?

If you do have the space (closet, spare room, crawlspace) to blast a 4x12 cab, use the space.  Closse mic the best sounding speaker (try 'em all, one will sound best) with a good dynamic mic, and room mic the whole thing with a good condensor mic (a few feet away).

Monitor the mics as you'd monitor anything else--through your monitor speakers.  Fix any phase cancellation problems by setting the monitor level of the two mics, panned hard left and right.  Now put your monitors into 'mono' mode, and if the volume level drops off, move one mic (the room mic usually) until the volume level doesn't change betweeen stereo and mono modes.  Now when you record and mix, you won't find that the stereo guitar disappears in the mix.

The iso cab is a great idea, but blowing that much energy into a teensy space results in a very squashed sound that you can't 'un-squash'.
The small space also kills off your bass response.  Real professional touring iso boxes resemble giant road cases on wheels, usually with a single speaker and room inside to move the mics around.  Real professional studios have dedicated rooms for amps because they know it sounds better to give the speakeer some room to breathe.  You don't have to build a room, use a spare beedroom, closet, crawlspace, stairwell, whatever, and utilize the ambience of the space.  If you really want the tight squashed sound, thow a few packing blankets over the cab/mic to kill any ambience.

Like i was saying, instead of buying/building an iso box, find a single 12" cab and stick it in a closet.  Hang packing blankets in front of the door using clips from the hardware store.  Spend some time getting your sounds before you start working towards the take.

[Gilks]

I've opted for a 2x12 size cab for my new head and I'll be building the box to fit a 2x12 combo.

And I disagree re the lack of bass in small spaces. I don't see that as an issue at all because so much of the bass is cut when mixing, I'll still have more than enough regardless of how big the space is. Also, if for some reason that would ever happen, that's just another use for the emulated output. I could mix the two signals.

I haven't built it yet since my recording setup has changed a lot since then. Right now I've got an amp head (Blackstar HT-20) with an emulated output I'm using. Though I'm still aiming to get a 2x12 cab for live use and because some people I record with REALLY want to mic up an amp no matter how good your plugins, DI's, or emulated outputs may be. So no I haven't built it, but hopefully I will get a cab in the near future and then I will build an iso box.

[breakfastime]

I've opted for a 2x12 size cab for my new head and I'll be building the box to fit a 2x12 combo.

And I disagree re the lack of bass in small spaces. I don't see that as an issue at all because so much of the bass is cut when mixing, I'll still have more than enough regardless of how big the space is. Also, if for some reason that would ever happen, that's just another use for the emulated output. I could mix the two signals.

Bass frequencies take more room to fully develop.  It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of physics.  Disagree all you want--it doesn't change reality.
Why are you cutting bass when mixing? Are you listening on studio monitors that have a flat EQ response?  Getting your bass frequencies messed up is a sure fire way to a muddy or tinny mix.  Avoid EQ tweaks unless absolutely necessary, in the cutting and mixing stages  If you're boosting or cutting the bass for every mix that means that you either aren't hearing frequency response properly in your room, or aren't getting the signal to tape (it's an expression us old guys use) properly.  Or perhaps you are deaf.

I haven't built it yet since my recording setup has changed a lot since then. Right now I've got an amp head (Blackstar HT-20) with an emulated output I'm using. Though I'm still aiming to get a 2x12 cab for live use and because some people I record with REALLY want to mic up an amp no matter how good your plugins, DI's, or emulated outputs may be. So no I haven't built it, but hopefully I will get a cab in the near future and then I will build an iso box.

Knock yourself out.  For a while, I was cutting full bands in a space roughly the size of a one car garage--drum set, bass amp, two half-stacks, vocals.  No iso box was ever used in that particular space.  No leakage problems either, because I understand stuff like signal to noise ratio, and how sound frequencies travel, and which mics work best where, and how and where to point them.  You are building something because you want it, not because you need it.
I acquired a dozen office bafffles for free, took 'em all down to the space.  Turned out, I only needed four of them.  So I sold the rest.  Imagine if i had bought (or built) a dozen baffles because i was maried to the notion that I actually needed a dozen...
   
Spend your money and time more wisely, buy good mics and cables and stands and headphones.  Build baffles, not iso boxes.  Learn how sound waves travel, and how different mics perform.  If somebody with two decades experience tells you something, consider it--or run the risk of wasting energy chasing your tail. 

If you use something like a SansAmp to cut basics with, you can utilize your cutting room space to get a better drum sound.  THEN you can clear the room, place a single amp in there, and get a great sound for overdubbing guitar--the beauty part, this process takes a little longer, and makes you more money.  If you are running a commerical enterprise, billable hours is what you need, with a minimum of unnecessary expense.

[Gilks]

When it comes to physics it's not opinion, when it comes to mixing and how you like your own mixes that IS opinion and preference. My mixes are sounding good (finally) and fat and I'm pretty happy with it all so far, not that it's anywhere near professional sounding. But I did cut a lot of bass. This was with using the emulated output on my head, so I'm not concerned about not having enough bass by using an iso box.

Again, I disagree about EQ. As much as I feel the same way about trying to get things as close as you can BEFORE it hits the computer, if it sounds better with some EQ I'm gonna use EQ. Whether its with EQ or otherwise I you get a good sounding mix who cares how it's done? Everyone told me that the mud on guitars was at 300 on the EQ but cutting the 215 made a much bigger difference in clarity without sucking out anything I still wanted. The "proper way" isn't always the right way.

I'm not wasting time, that is your opinion. I will be able to at least practice with my amp at louder volumes if nothing else. I can heat up the tubes more, push it into some natural overdrive, record 200 watt heads where we can't find a volume low enough on the dial that doesn't disrupt others, I can only benefit from this.

[GPW]

 Gil,  don’t let any of us keep you from pursuing your Dream !!!!   Build one if you want ...   lots of info available ...   We built one  back in the 80’s , a small one with a 10” ...  It worked ... as intended ...  but quickly became just another dust catcher when we switched over to tiny  Studio tube amps/micd' ... Mice that Roar ... 
    While it ’s always a good idea to get your TONE right , before the computer, with all the  amp.shaping/effects apps available today , it’s really  Easy to get any tone you want ... digitally ...
We recently recorded a demo CD , and I used my 5  watt tube amp (cranked) ... Got my Tone ... then added some digital “touches” to it ...   SWEET !!!   Couldn’t do that in the old days ...     

[GPW]

 Ps... you’re not the only one going through this ... http://www.sewatt.com/node/21091#new

[Gilks]

Gil,  don’t let any of us keep you from pursuing your Dream !!!!   Build one if you want ...   lots of info available ...   We built one  back in the 80’s , a small one with a 10” ...  It worked ... as intended ...  but quickly became just another dust catcher when we switched over to tiny  Studio tube amps/micd' ... Mice that Roar ... 
    While it ’s always a good idea to get your TONE right , before the computer, with all the  amp.shaping/effects apps available today , it’s really  Easy to get any tone you want ... digitally ...
We recently recorded a demo CD , and I used my 5  watt tube amp (cranked) ... Got my Tone ... then added some digital “touches” to it ...   SWEET !!!   Couldn’t do that in the old days ...     

Yeah I am using smaller wattage amps (no more than 20 if I can help it) but still can't quite get to the sweet spot without being too loud for those around me, so this way it's gonna be a winning situation. Oh definitely, EQ makes a HUGE difference! Like I said earlier cutting the 215 with my tone give it a very nice, clear, heavy, djenty tone. With it in I get a more full, in your face punk sound. Very cool!!

[GPW]

   Please excuse my ignorance , but what is “djenty”   ?  Is that a group/band  ? 

[FC]

   Please excuse my ignorance , but what is “djenty”   ?  Is that a group/band  ? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djent

[GPW]

  Oh , COOL !!!   Thanks !!!            Dejentaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...'